Best Practices for Farm Business Structure

Paul

Neiffer: We are grateful that you are joining us for another episode of the Ag View Pitch, as we know that your time is very valuable. Our team at Ag View Solutions is always here for you for any questions or comments that you may have.

Chris: Please feel free to reach out to us at cbarron@agviewsolutions.com. And now here is your host, Chris Barron.

Paul

Neiffer: Welcome everybody to another episode of the Ag View Pitch, and today we're going to have a conversation around Understanding Farm Business Structure, and we are lucky enough to have with us Paul Niefer. Paul, how's it going?

Chris: Doing great.

Paul

Neiffer: Good, good. So, uh, you know, this is a topic that we deal with with a lot of producers. Um, you're the, uh, victim of a lot of phone calls, you know, from, you know, from farmers that, you know, when they're working with their CPA trying to figure out, you know, what what makes the most sense? Do we want 15 different LLCs? Do we, you know, we have a C-Corp, we have an S-Corp, we got this going on, that going on, we got, you know, uh, 4 or 5 siblings farming together and one owns a tractor, one owns a combine, one owns a planter, and it's—

Chris: or what's worse, one owns 20% of the tractor and 30% of the combine and 40% of the, of the planter and, and vice versa.

Paul

Neiffer: Yeah, and everybody's depreciated it at a different rate too on top of that, and there's maybe 3 CPAs. You might as might as well throw some more complexity into it, right? Exactly. So, you know, and, and, and we're really not, uh, dissing anybody or saying, you know, hey, you know, why, why this or why that. It's just, it's just what is, right?

Chris: Right. It just happens over time. Yep. I mean, that's, uh, and we see that across the whole spectrum of the farming community.

Paul

Neiffer: Yeah. You know, and, and we get a lot of phone calls and people are like almost 'Well, I don't know if you even want to mess with us here. We got this going on and that going on.' And but it's normal, right? I mean, it's, it's like you said, you know, it happens over time. But I think the other way to maybe put that is it seems like people sometimes outgrow their ability to maybe manage the business because, you know, they've— they're just doing a really good job of farming, you know. They're, they're making money. That's a good problem to have. And so then it's like, okay, we got to manage taxes, we got to You know, and sometimes decisions are made around the taxes maybe rather than maybe the best business decision.

Chris: You mean the tax tail wags the dog once in a while?

Paul

Neiffer: Yeah, almost all the time. That can happen once in a while. So, you know, so I guess what I want to do today, Paul, is, is just to kind of have you back me up on some stuff that we tell producers. And you can correct me if I'm wrong here too. I mean, we're not— we didn't script this. We're just having a conversation around You know, what is the best for the producers? And one of the things that, that we do, and we try to do very genuinely, is when we sit down with a producer, we want to work through a discovery process. We want to understand everything from the family dynamics, you know, the, the dog's name, and everything that's going on in the farm, right? Because if we don't understand where they've been, it's really hard to map out where they are now, which is exactly what we need to do.

And if you're a producer that has never done this, sit down and just draw a picture of your business entity on a, on a blank sheet of paper. Draw a box where each entity is and then start looking at where money flows and where, where things are going on within the business. And that's the here and now. And then what we try to do is help people think through, okay, in 10 years, if we could draw a picture of a perfect world, what would that look like? You know, what, what would we want to do if, if money wasn't an issue?

Chris: If taxes weren't an issue?

Paul

Neiffer: Yeah, if taxes weren't an issue, if age wasn't an issue, if, you know, the dynamics and the, you know, potentially poor communication or some issues and structure, you know, and people getting along or whatever it is, if those things didn't exist, what would that perfect world look like? And if we can draw that picture out based on already having drawn a picture of where we are now, then it makes it possible to build a bridge from the middle of, okay, this is where we are now to get to where that is. And then that's where, you know, people like Ag View Solutions or whoever they want to work with, you know, a third party looking at what is and, and helping you get to there.

And, and, and that team is the CPA, it's your attorney, it's the banker, the insurance, the insurance agent, you know, and it's everybody that has vested interest in the game and making sure that everybody's transparent and can see things. So I wanted to start out with that piece of it because I'm trying to develop that roadmap to get them from A to B, right? And, and I think a lot of times what is hard is if we go to an attorney and say, you know, tell us how we should transition, or tell us, you know, and if we can't go to the attorney with a, a pre-designed map, it's, it's sort of hard for the attorney to say, well, I think you should do this or do that. They will, but they may not give you always the best advice or the same thing.

You know, we'll pick on CPAs, the same thing if If the farmer shows up and tells you I want to do XYZ but doesn't give you the whole story, it's really hard to give good advice if you can't spend the time with them to figure out what's the backstory, right?

Chris: Well, and I think CPAs, attorneys, whoever it might be, we tend to have a little bit of a bias. I'm not saying that's bad, but we're used to what we're normally dealing with. So if we're used to our advice is we always do S corps, you know, when you come to us we're going to probably say let's do an S corp or an LLC or whatever it might be. So You're right, if the client comes in with a very nice outline of where we're at, where we want to go, and here's why we want to get there, you know, that makes our life a lot easier. Plus, that helps us throw out that bias and step back and say, oh yeah, that makes sense. Let's figure the best way of doing it, not necessarily the way maybe I as the CPA or I as the attorney might be comfortable with.

Paul

Neiffer: Right. So, what I want to do is get to sort of helping the listeners think through of the why behind to start with, you know, why, why would we sit down and plan out the business structure? And there's several reasons for that, and, and I want to just rattle through them and then have you comment on this, Paul. But, you know, the number one reason that typically people think of, you know, maybe putting their semis in an LLC and structuring them in a different entity is because of liability or the the machinery and equipment or whatever. That's one reason. Another reason, which I, I view as the number one reason, is accounting. Yeah, you know, so taking that rolling stock, taking the semis, putting them in, in a, in their own entity, putting the machinery and equipment in its own entity, and having both of those entities become a service provider to the farm operation, right?

Chris: And actually account for it correctly, bill for it correctly. Because in order to have that liability protection, it has to be treated as if it was its own entity. I mean, its own business, right? It needs to do that accounting, that billing, and so on, right?

Paul

Neiffer: Right. And, you know, and, and so that, that accounting, I think, is number one. We're going to come back to that. But the other one is, is transition, you know. You know, we just already kind of mentioned it a little bit, but, you know, when the brother has a part of a tractor and another brother's part of it, and, you know, and Grandpa owns the planter and Dad owns the field cultivator, and it's like, you know, how do you, how do you settle up at the the year, it's a mess.

Chris: Especially when they start doing trades and try to keep that all straight. And a lot of times it's not really written down. It's, "Oh yeah, we'll pay 30% for this." And 10 years later or 5 years later, "What'd we pay for that?" "Yeah, well, that's not the way I remember it.

Paul

Neiffer: That's not what I said." And it's he said, she said.

Chris: And like I say, you might have 3 different CPAs and they're all accounting for it differently. Right. Yeah.

Paul

Neiffer: You know, that's, so really those 3 reasons, liability, accounting, and transition. And so what I want to do is start with liability and make a couple comments and see if you have some additional ones with regard to liability. But one of the things that we observe when we sit down with farmers sometimes is, okay, we have a trucking entity and we put it in an LLC because of liability. Okay, well, do you have a checking account? Yes or no, you know, maybe that's number one. Yeah, number one is you should have a checking account. Number two is, do you, um, you know, do you have a separate liability policy for that entity so it's a standalone business that's paying its own insurance? Is that, is that entity paying all of its own expenses? Is it buying its fuel under the name of that LLC? Is it buying the repairs?

Is it paying for, you know, all of the expenses that are within that business? And so If it's not, then it's probably not a genuine LLC and is likely that if you have a loss and you can talk to your insurance person about that, but if you have a loss, it's highly likely that they'll be able to penetrate right through that LLC if you don't do it right. So if you're, so I guess the message is if you're not going to do it right, then don't even do it in the first place. Yeah.

Chris: Don't waste your time on, on setting up the fees and so on. And another thing, a lot of times what I've heard is, yeah, we set up this trucking LLC and then we rent the trucks back to the farm operation. Well, you've just transferred the liability back to the farm operation. So you've accomplished absolutely nothing, plus created more paperwork on your end.

Paul

Neiffer: Yeah, you don't lease anything back to the entity. You, you, you create an invoice.

Chris: You're in the business.

Paul

Neiffer: Yeah, that has to be a standalone business that has to be for profit. Doesn't mean it's going to make profit every year. Doesn't mean that you, you know, won't have a loss year in the trucking. That's not that hard to have a loss year in a trucking business. It's going to depend on how, what rates you charge back to the operating entities. And that gets back to the accounting, is, is if you're charging 24 cents a bushel, let's say if it's just a grain operation and you're charging per bushel, or maybe you're hauling livestock or whatever and it's so much per trip or whatever, and, and at the end of the year you're $10,000 short, that means your rates are too low. And if you can adjust your rates, guess what? Instantly, all of a sudden, you know exactly what the cost of doing business is for your trucks.

Chris: Versus it was buried in your farm operation.

Paul

Neiffer: Exactly. No clue, right? Right. And, and so that's, that's the trucking. That's, that's the liability. That's why the accounting is important. And we're going to get to the transition, but I want to hit the equipment. Same thing, right? You know, people a lot of times are like, well, we have a liability company, you know, limited liability company for the trucks because they're the most risk, you know. And there's—

Chris: unless you're out in my area where you can flip a combine and have it run down the hill.

Paul

Neiffer: Right, if the combine rolls over 6 times, that means it was on a steep hill probably. But so it— but it's the same thing with machinery and equipment too that we see. I always make the comment to clients, what happens if, you know, your hired man pulls out on the highway with a 24-row planter and creams a school bus or a vanload of kids and somebody's injured or killed? You know, you have pretty high risk if you're on the highway at all with farm equipment. So it's the same thing. And so when you think about the, the liability exposure on the farm equipment, on the machinery itself, it's the same type of deal. And so, you know, that's actually a quick story out in our area.

Chris: We had about a month ago during harvest, uh, combine going down the highway and another guy on the other— or a car on the other side of the highway We think he ended up driving under the influence, but he went right across, ran right into the front axle of the combine, bent the axle, combine still sitting on the side of the road. And it wasn't the guy driving the combine's fault. I mean, that guy just swerved over and ran right into him. So that's easy to do.

Paul

Neiffer: Yeah. And that's just it. I mean, the liability portion of that. And then, but again, I'm gonna go to accounting again here with you sitting across the table from me is—

Chris: Who, I tend to agree.

Paul

Neiffer: Yeah. The accounting piece of it is machinery and equipment is the second largest line item expense for most of our clients. In North Dakota, it's the number one line item expense. In New York and some of the areas where your land value isn't as high as, you know, versus Illinois or Indiana, Ohio, or Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, the I-states are, you know, tend to be land is number one, machinery is a close second. But when you're dealing with a line item expense that's that high and we don't measure or put, you know, our equipment in a format that is measurable, we cannot improve what we don't measure. Right. And so what we see a lot of times is, is people just don't really know what their equipment costs are. And so we obviously utilize Profit Manager to do that, but we break the machinery and equipment cost into a per-pass for every piece of equipment.

Well, then that, that every piece of equipment then that is ran across any, any of the operating acres, fields, then can be billed basically on a per acre basis. And so let's say dad, father, and son, um, you know, farm together, or there's 3 or 4 entities that, and they each own some of the machinery. Let's say they each own a third of the machinery. Well, then they could each own a third of the shares of the equipment company And then that equipment company bills the operating entity. Right.

Chris: And you're running the repairs through there, you're running the diesel through there, the gas, the insurance, you're running it all through there. And like you say, at the end of the year, hey, there might be $100,000 of cash left over. Well, that's a sign that maybe you're charging too much or you have a deficit of $50,000, you're not charging enough, but you at least know what the quantity, be able to quantify that cost.

Paul

Neiffer: Yeah, Shay and I always tell people to ask the question, you know, well, what happens if we're— if there's $50,000 extra in there? Well, you have a choice of things you can do, you know, for tax planning purposes. No different. You can take that $50,000, you can pay dividends back to the owners, you can pay down debt, you know, if you've got some principal and interest payments due, you could accelerate that payment, or you could trade up some, some additional equipment. You know, there's several things.

Chris: Well, and again, um, the cash side is important, but also we have to understand there is some type of economic depreciation associated with that equipment. So actually, if you don't have any principal payments, there should be extra cash. There better be, because, you know, there, there's that depreciation that you have to factor in.

Paul

Neiffer: Exactly, depreciation. And then the other factor there, and this is a whole nother topic, and so I'll just —leave it at one statement— it was inflation, right? And what we see, our data shows depreciation inflation is 15% of the total value of any machine on an annualized basis. And so if you have $100,000, it's going to cost you $15,000 in unwritten checks for the year between depreciation and inflation added together. If inflation's going up, your depreciation's going down because the used stuff's worth more. And so that's just some— just for a side note, that's some data that we've accumulated over about 10 years where it's a pretty constant number.

Chris: And so this year might have a little jolt to it, maybe, maybe not. Although, but they say the used equipment is, is appreciated maybe even faster than the new stuff. Yeah.

Paul

Neiffer: And, and we've seen inflation go up quite a bit, and it— but the, the used stuff have come up enough that I still think that 15% looks like it's gonna, gonna dial into to there. So, but you know, that's kind of a side note. But back to the accounting, I mean, without doing the accounting, you wouldn't even be able to talk about what we just talked about, right? You wouldn't even be like, what? You know. And, and so, you know, the other thing that does for you is it helps you to prioritize trades. It helps you to prioritize and have a discussion instead of, you know, the, the dad might want a new planter, the one son might want to you know, a new combine and the other partner wants a new tractor and you got arm wrestle over it and well one owns part of the other one and what are the decision rights and all that.

So if you can have an operating agreement structured, you have, you know, everything set up for prioritization and you have a capital detail report that shows you what amount of capital you have available to spend in the first place.

Chris: And I think because I've worked with you before, you guys do a good job of doing a projection out 3 to 5 years. So you determine here's the cycle that we want to do. Now things happen, we know that, but you, you have a pretty good idea here's where we need to go and here's how we get there, right? And, and if you just bury it inside of your farm operation, you're never going to be able to do that, right?

Paul

Neiffer: And, and the clients we work with, we exactly like you just said, we have a 3-year planning tool which you, you put your machinery and equipment list in there that's in the LLC, and then you say, okay, over the next 3 years, what things need to be traded out, you know, what things need, need to be updated, whatever. We put in an estimated trade amount, a difference in each year, which tallies up the total amount of capital needed for the next 3 years. And then we like to share that with the equipment dealers too, you know, so they know ahead of time. It doesn't have to be a secret. When it's a secret, it makes it really hard for the equipment dealers to figure out you know, what should they be getting in for new stuff and, and that kind of thing, especially in this kind of environment that we're in.

You know, as we talk here in the, you know, first part of September in 2021, there's a lot of inflation and it's really hard to get a hold of stuff.

Chris: And so, well, and that also makes my life easier as a CPA to understand how should we optimize this from a tax standpoint. I mean, right now, bonus depreciation other than maybe the state side allows us to deduct anything we buy. But eventually bonus is going to disappear and we're back limited to Section 179 plus normal depreciation. So if you're trying to dump, you know, $3 million of equipment in one year, that may not be what we want you to do. We may say, hey, it's much better buy $1.5 million in December, we're okay with that, and buy $1.5 million in January or something like that. So, but if we see that projection and we know Okay, here's your trend over that next 3-year period. We can at least help you decide what's the best from the tax standpoint.

Paul

Neiffer: Yeah, and one that bringing up that tax thing makes me think of a commonly asked question too. A lot of times, you know, like the dads that are sitting there with the higher percentage of the ownership and the equipment, maybe dad's got 80% and the 2 sons each have 10% or something. A lot of times, you know, dad will say, well, if we do that, then what am I going to get for depreciation? Well, you're going to get your percent of depreciation of your shares of ownership, right? Right. So, you know, if, if, uh, you know, you buy a new combine, it's a, you know, or you spend $100,000 on something to trade, let's say for example, you're going to get, if you can deduct all of it in one year, you're going to get $80,000 worth of deductible, you know, uh, value back to your tax return from a K-1 that goes from the—

Chris: right. And, and you mentioned the word transition. So Dad's got 80%, he knows over time he'd like to maybe be down to a third, well, it's going to be much easier to just start transferring those LLC units over to the two sons versus trying to— okay, 13% of this combine, and, you know, one son gets 13%, the other son gets 4%. That doesn't work very well.

Paul

Neiffer: It's impossible to do it. And, and then people want to be— you know, it's different between being, you know, equal and fair. I mean, you, you know, you want to be fair, but it's hard to be equal. And most transitioning, you know, so we'll get into the transitioning now. A lot of times what happens is mom and dad have some kids in, in, in their family that aren't in the farm, right? And so they want to be fair, but, you know, you might not be able to do everything equally, right? And so the machinery and equipment is a great place to get the rolling stock over to the actively engaged participants so you can figure out, okay, what's you know, what is fair, right? You know, and, and the, the non-actively engaged kids don't need that stuff anyway. In fact, they shouldn't get it, right?

Chris: And, and believe me, the kids that are actively engaged, they don't want the brother in Seattle or Des Moines or wherever it might be telling them what to do about that tractor, right?

Paul

Neiffer: Right. And we see the same thing with the grain facilities and the same thing with the buildings. And so we won't get in that— into that in this podcast, but I think it's important to understand that there's a lot of reasons to put a couple of entities together, namely a trucking LLC entity that provides service to your operating entities, whether you're livestock operation, row crop operation, whatever it is you're doing. And then, and then the machinery and equipment entity, you know. And, and sometimes, you know, they've got to do custom manure or they're doing other custom work or hay or whatever.

Chris: And that's a good point. I think by having it in that separate entity, it helps them determine Should we do custom? What should we bill for custom? I mean, a lot of times, well, they look at the, you know, Iowa may have a state average. Well, that may not really be applicable. You're doing that state average and you're losing money.

Paul

Neiffer: Yeah, and that's, yeah, that's a great point because when we see that a lot, you know, and that's why I said with Profit Manager we go through and we look at a per-pass cost based on the value of your capital investment. And, you know, it's, it's dividing it by the acres that you're operating, it's dividing it by the percentage of usage of that power unit based on that power unit might be used on a grain cart and a planter. So, you know, we go through that process. And so, um, you know, we've got a lot of clients probably listening to this that are already like, yeah, we've already done that, you know, tell me something I don't already know. But, but at the same time, you know, when, when we sit down with people and introduce that, the more of these we've done, it gets easier for us and it seems like old hat.

But I think it, it is a lot for people the first time looking at this and thinking How does this work? You know, and they figure it out, and then the next day they wake up and they're like, okay, now wait, how does, you know, so I need to invoice from the machinery company to the operating entity? And, and yes, and then we try to do that in the spring and we try to do that in the fall.

Chris: Yeah, yeah, it doesn't have to be every time you use that equipment. No, but it does need to be a formal invoice.

Paul

Neiffer: Yep, formal invoice, and it needs to be itemized. And again, if you know what your machinery equipment per pass costs are, it's very easy to say, okay, you know, we strip-tilled this farm, we sprayed this farm, we planted this farm, and we harvested this farm, okay, in this entity. And you just get billed out for those, whether it's seasonal or you do one annual invoice. Typically we like to see two invoices just from, from a cash flow perspective from, from the equipment companies and You know, the clients we work with, they've all seen it. We have a proven process where we put together, you know, the LLC startup. It's a checklist. It's an aggregated list of a bunch of different things. It's not in any particular order. It's just, you know, check the box off and work through it, you know.

Chris: And, you know, and I think some of the resistance, I think sometimes by the accountants, and I'm throwing myself in there as an accountant, is that process of taking dad and two sons and all these different pieces of equipment and combining together can be a little bit of a nightmare. I mean, right, once you got it done, it's a piece of cake after that. It actually makes your life easier. So it's that initial little bit of short-term pain for very much a long-term gain. So, yeah, so I will stick up for the accountant a little bit at times in that.

Paul

Neiffer: Um, well, I'm always complaining about the accountant because whenever I bring this up, that's, that's the sticking point usually.

Chris: Yeah. And that's why it might be the sticking point. So I think the more that we can be proactive to help that CPA understand, typically CPA, understand what we're doing, what we're trying to accomplish, and the fact that it will make his or her life easier, right, after that first year, you know, that's what's important. I think that's a great point.

Paul

Neiffer: And I would add to that also, and I would almost start with the why of it too. Because some— I think I've heard it a lot from producers, the accountant looks at you cross-eyed like, why do you want to do this? You know, well, it's because of liability, you know. And I think a lot of times, rightfully so, accounting transition, right? And I think rightfully so though, the accountant probably sometimes assumes the farmer's not going to follow through on it anyway, so why do I want to bother with it? But yeah, and, and there's some truths to that. Exactly, exactly. So I, I think You know, anybody we're working with anyway, I guarantee you that they're doing it for the right reasons and there are reasons for it. But to your point, we need to do probably a better job of explaining first of all why we need to do it.

And then also that map, like I said, you know, this is where we want to be in 10 years. The CPA is dealing with you for this year. Yeah. Not for 10 years down the road, you know. So, you know, and the attorneys a little bit the same way, you know, they're like, okay, what do you need right now to protect yourself or whatever? Well, I need to transition this over, over the next 10 years, 7 years, 5 years, 3 years, whatever it is.

Chris: And I don't want to pay a lot of tax and I want to be efficient and I want to have a good reason for doing this and here's my good reason.

Paul

Neiffer: Right, right. And then I think that definitely helps.

Chris: So yeah, and I'm going to tell you right now, for a lot of the accountants that I know and have talked with, we're burnt out. I mean, this COVID, it feels like 2019 or the 2020 tax season still isn't done even though we're into 2021. So I think hopefully over the next few months we finally relax a little bit to get our breath and I think we'll change our tune a little bit.

Paul

Neiffer: Mm-hmm, yeah. So I think we're covering about everything, you know, with regard to this. I just want to summarize a little bit and see if there's anything else you had, but you know, really the whole point here is just was to talk about The importance of having a business structure, you know, like I said, a lot of people call us and they're trying to figure out how they make things a little easier from an accounting perspective. Maybe they started to transition, but they don't have a structure. Well, it's really hard to transition something that has no structure. Right. And so, you know, we want to put the structure together so that you can transition something. We want to protect the risk that you have, you know, mitigate that risk.

Again, it's involving the insurance your lender, your CPA, the attorney, you know, and probably some sort of a third party looking at this and helping you draw and map those things out. Because that first conversation sometimes is a little testy if you have multiple owners that own pieces of equipment and you're still not quite sure who's got what, where, when, why, and how, and to get that mapped out.

Chris: And what's even worse is the ownership is, is in all these different percentages, but then liability doesn't tie out. You know, right, dad might not have any liability, whereas the sons do have some liability. And you have those issues when you bring it together.

Paul

Neiffer: Right, right. And that's the one thing we always talk about is assets, liabilities, and net equity. Right. And so we make a list of all of the equipment that would go into the machinery and equipment company. And it doesn't matter who owns it, you know, we tag it with whoever. If there's 3 people, each person gets a different color on the spreadsheet. But, you know, we map that out and then we look at it and say, okay, Here's your, your asset value. This is what it appraises for, for your, you know, actual what somebody would write you a check for. And everybody agrees on that? Yep. And that's an agreed-upon value. And then we look at any liability, and then you subtract that liability from the asset, and you have a net equity. Everybody puts a net equity—

Chris: hopefully you have a net equity. Sometimes that might be a deficit.

Paul

Neiffer: Yeah, well, with, with what used equipment's doing this year, I think it'd probably be okay, but You know, so anyway, I, you know, I think that's about all I had, but I just think it's so important that as producers, as our businesses grow, we really got to step back and look at this, this how we structure things and why we're doing it. So any, any final thoughts?

Chris: No, I totally agree. I mean, I think the key is that structure. That structure helps have better accounting. It helps you make better decisions. You know, that's what we're trying to do is help you make a better decision. It helps you become more profitable.

Paul

Neiffer: Yeah, and it also helps with communication too, because, you know, you ask people what, what's working, what's not working in your operation, and communication usually rises to the top, and it's usually around stuff like structure in this. So, so, all right, well, Paul, thank you very much. This was a great conversation. I really appreciate it. I thought about doing this on my own. This is a thousand times better having the conversation with you. And also, you know, just for everybody listening to this I would just ask you if you would maybe share this with another producer friend you have. It doesn't have to be a neighbor you're competing with, but you know, you know, but seriously, pass this on to other producers that you're friends with. I mean, we don't charge anything for podcasts. We're not trying to make any money on it.

We are genuinely trying to help producers improve their businesses, and that's really the whole goal of the Ag View Pitch and what we do at Ag View Solutions. We really want to help farmers do better and be better. And so again, share this and also share it with your CPA, you know, pass this on to the CPA. And if, if they want to reach out to us, have questions and want to talk through any of these things, I'm sure Paul, you'd be willing to talk to any of the CPAs as well, wouldn't you?

Chris: I talk to hundreds of CPAs a year. Yep, yep.

Paul

Neiffer: So reach out to Paul or to myself, and if you've got— anybody's got questions. And again, thanks for listening, and we will catch you again next time on the Eggview pitch.