Enlist: weed control, seed technology, and more with Shawna Hubbard

Shay

Foulk: And it all comes down to this. Two on, two out, bottom of the ninth. The Farmers lead by one. Full count. Here comes the play at the plate, and it's the Ag View Pitch! Welcome back everyone to another episode of the Ag View Pitch, and today you have myself, Shay Foulk, with special guest Shawna Hubbard. Shawna, thank you so much for joining us today.

Shawna

Hubbard: Glad to be with you here.

Shay

Foulk: And I was wondering if you could just take a few minutes to talk a little bit about your title and role and where you're located.

Shawna

Hubbard: Yes, I'm the Enlist herbicide product manager located in the Indianapolis branch of Corteva Agriscience. So I work out of the headquarters here in Indiana, but work with folks who use the Enlist system across the country, north to south and east to west here.

Shay

Foulk: That's great. How long have you been associated on that team?

Shawna

Hubbard: Well, I've been dedicated to Enlist in this herbicide management role for about 2.5 years, but been around the Enlist system for quite a number of years before that. I've got 9 years with the company when you count my time at Heritage Dow. So I was lucky enough to see Enlist come from the pre-commercial stages to where we are now, finally being able to fully launch in all of our crops.

Shay

Foulk: Well, I think I'm definitely talking to the right person then. So yeah, that's great. And, you know, with the, with the title here, obviously we want to talk a little bit about the Enlist technology. And I was wondering if we can kind of back up to some of the beginning stages there. And if you could give us a little background on why this Enlist technology was developed and maybe, you know, how long this system has been in research and development. It sounds like quite a while now.

Shawna

Hubbard: Sure. It has definitely been a journey to get to where we are today, but If we do back up, like you said, back into the early 2000s, as companies were seeing developing resistance to glyphosate and thinking about where to go next in the trait herbicide space in soybeans, that was the genesis of the Enlist system in research and development at Dow, really thinking, what's the next step beyond a single traded herbicide mode of action, to where we could enable more herbicide modes of action to be sprayed on the crop. As glyphosate resistance started to spread, and we saw those weeds evolving to be smarter, if you will, or more adapted to that herbicide, adding the opportunity to spray more modes of action post-emergent seemed like the place to go. So then from there, Dow brought that through the pipeline and worked on both sides of the system, right?

The Enlist system as a whole is proprietary to us here at Corteva, both on the trait side and the herbicide angle. And then as well, as we got to 2012 and we were getting closer to launching this, We, in addition to the traits and herbicides, brought forward a piece of our platform around management of the system called Enlist Ahead, which focuses on helping to prevent further spread of weed resistance and helping us maximize the efficacy of sprays. Um, so from the time of conception, when glyphosate resistance was first seen on the horizon, to full launch of E3 Beans here in 2019. That's been a journey, but one that's been really worthwhile and now really rewarding at this stage.

Shay

Foulk: Yeah, that's pretty incredible, and I appreciate the background on that. I was wondering if you can talk a little bit about why this technology is so special, so specifically how it works, and then also, you know, why would the farmer want to use this system? What's the advantage?

Shawna

Hubbard: Sure, I think as we think about how this system is different and special, maybe just a quick baseline on Enlist in terms of soybeans. We've got Enlist E3 soybeans, that's the trait piece of the system, and within that E3 bean, there is herbicide tolerance to glyphosate, to glufosinate,, and then to 2,4-D choline. So that trait then pairs up with Enlist herbicides, which contain 2,4-D choline. We talked a little bit about the development of the system through, through time and history. One thing that not everyone may know is that Dow, Dow AgroSciences, is my heritage organization, has a really deep history in expertise in manufacturing 2,4-D.

But as the system came through the pipeline and Dow was looking at the type of 2,4-D that was available at the time, traditional formulations of amine and ester, there was a recognition that for a system that would be launched on what would eventually be tens of millions of acres as the product reaches maturity, we wanted a 2,4-D product that worked better. Than what was available at that time. And that was the genesis of 2,4-D choline. And I would say that's also still what makes it special today. The chemistry is truly different than what we saw traditionally. It's got some characteristics of inherent low volatility, as well as reduced potential for physical drift that make that very different than a 2,4-D amine. In an ester.

So I like to think of Enlist herbicides as all the weed control power that folks know with 2,4-D, but a much better behaved chemistry with easier handling characteristics. So we were looking to bring forward a technology that would help farmers with weed resistance by offering more modes of action being able to spray in crop. With a chemistry that was really different than what had been on the market, that would result in a herbicide label that gave applicators flexibility and peace of mind. But it all, at the end of the day, comes down to, could we bring a product forward that really gave farmers that tool to try to address glyphosate resistance?

Shay

Foulk: No, that's great. There's definitely a lot of benefits and advantages there to the farmer with that system, and appreciate the background on some of the technology. I was wondering if we can shift a little bit and talk about which crops specifically carry the Enlist technology, and then what are some examples of resistant or susceptible crops to these Enlist herbicides?

Shawna

Hubbard: Yeah, great point. We spend a lot of time talking about E3 soybeans, but they're not the only crop that is within the Enlist system. We have Enlist corn, which is also tolerant to 2,4-D choline, glyphosate, and really interesting, tolerant to FOP chemistry. So that's kind of a unique tool in the corn space to have resistance to Assure 2, which is a quazalophop product, which allows you to control grasses and volunteer corn in an Enlist corn crop. Uh, so that's another interesting aspect of the system. And then our third crop is Enlist cotton, and it's actually the piece of our system that's been commercially on the market the longest. So if you're not from around the Cotton Belt, um, you may not be familiar with the Phytagen brand. That's Corteva's cottonseed brand. And they launched Enlist Cotton in conjunction with Enlist Herbicides in 2017.

Uh, so that gave us a chance, actually, in that Cotton Belt market, to really see the trait and herbicide at work several years before we were able to launch fully commercially in Enlist E3 soybeans. Uh, so that just gives you a, a better idea as we talk about system So it's 3 crops, 2 herbicides, plus our management resource. That's what all is encompassed within the NLIST system.

Shay

Foulk: Great. And on the opposite end of that spectrum, there's a lot of crops and other fruits and vegetables and things growing out there that obviously do not carry this technology. So what are some common examples of— susceptible crops to the enlist herbicides, and how can farmers plan for that throughout the growing season?

Shawna

Hubbard: It's a great question, and it takes us back to a principle of planning that we should all be following, no matter what technology is in play. It's really all about understanding what's around you in terms of crops and landscapes. So I'll define a couple of things quickly to your point about which crops are susceptible and which are not within this system. So first, I'll say crops that are considered, let's call them compatible with the Enlist system, meaning these crops don't carry a tolerance trait for 2,4-D like Enlist crops, However, uh, they have a natural inherent level of tolerance to 2,4-D, uh, that makes them not considered a susceptible crop. So what I mean by that, in the compatible crops category, that's corn, wheat, alfalfa, sorghum, and then really importantly, non-enlist soybeans.

Those crops all have a good level of inherent tolerance to 2,4-D, and it makes them not susceptible. But let me define what I mean by susceptible. That label is really a term that's connected to herbicide labels and how they advise about which crops to be very careful around when you spray the product. So a susceptible crop in this definition is one that has a very low level of natural inherent tolerance to 2,4-D. Examples of those susceptible crops are vineyards, tomatoes, non-enlist cotton, and a category called cucurbits, which is things like cucumbers and melons. So a lot of that in the susceptible crop Makes a lot of sense to us, those are specialty high-value crops that we understand that we need to be careful anytime we're spraying around those crops. But particularly, a need to take notice of that within LISTS because they are considered susceptible crops.

So this is a little bit of ins and outs of explanation here, but I'll wrap up this piece of the answer as to why all that matters. If you're around compatible crops, like corn and non-enlist soybeans, wheat, alfalfa, this gives you a lot of field scenarios where you don't have any spray restrictions in terms of spraying an enlist herbicide on an E3 field and what's downwind from you. If non-enlist soybeans are downwind from your enlist field, you can spray Enlist herbicides because that crop is not considered susceptible in terms of the herbicide label. However, if you had a vineyard or a field of tomatoes or non-Enlist cotton downwind from you, you could not spray Enlist herbicides on that field because you have a susceptible crop downwind.

So end of the day, it just Comes down to being aware of our surroundings, taking care, as we always should, around those specialty and high-value crops, but also maximizing the ability to put Enlist around those compatible crops and still get good sprays.

Shay

Foulk: Yeah, that's great. And especially when you look at the wide reach that the Enlist technology has here in the United States, it definitely is something to be considering with the susceptible crops, and as you mentioned earlier, with any herbicide program, it's definitely something that we need to closely pay attention to. So I was wondering if we can look specifically at the herbicides there, Enlist One and Enlist Duo. Can you tell me a little bit about the difference between them, and also just a little bit more about what actually happens when they are sprayed on the crop?

Shawna

Hubbard: Sure. 2 herbicides within our portfolio for Enlist here. Enlist Duo is a, a very convenient proprietary blend of glyphosate plus 2,4-D choline. And we see that product used a lot for farmer applicators, uh, who are looking for something that's, uh, just more convenient in terms of already being mixed. We also see Enlist Duo used quite a bit in burndown uses. Conveniently, you've got the glyphosate right in the product. The second product is in List 1, and that's a straight goods 2,4-D choline product, and its main distinguishing feature from, from Duo is that you've got more tank mix flexibility within List 1. A couple of the notable impacts of that flexibility is that you can tank mix Liberty herbicide, within List 1. Remembering that all E3 beans have tolerance to glufosinate, that's the active in Liberty, we can conveniently tank mix Enlist One plus Liberty together.

There are also just a wider selection of other herbicide products, including residuals, also insecticides, fungicides, and things like that, that we're able to tank mix within List One. So that's kind of the difference of where we see that product fit. If you're going for convenience, you're probably leaning toward Duo. If you're really wanting to expand your opportunities for tank mixing, you're going to lean toward Enlist One. And that's a really important aspect to a lot of applicators. But with either of those products, as we think through, hey, we're going out there to make a spray, what's going to happen? Uh, from the perspective of what happens to the weeds, uh, 2,4-D choline is a Group 4 growth regulator, uh, so if you've seen traditional 2,4-D in ester or in amine at work, 2,4-D choline has the same type of activity, uh, on weeds as traditional 2,4-D.

Uh, you're going to see it essentially outgrow itself, and you're going to get that twisting, uh, and curling, and that's how the weed then dies. So that's what's happening on the weed itself. On that Enlist crop, you're going to see really robust tolerance to 2,4-D choline or glyphosate or Liberty. Um, able to spray even in situations that typically can happen in a field where you have a 2x rate because you had an overlap, really robust tolerance of that the E3 trait in soybeans to 2,4-D choline. Then lastly, I'd say as far as what happens, the characteristics of 2,4-D choline with Colex-D technology that we mentioned earlier, where you've got near-zero volatility and reduced potential for physical drift. As you spray that, something that comes back from our farmers who have experience with the product is that it really does lay down, and stay down in the field.

Okay, so what we don't see is volatilization of that product after you spray, and as long as we've got the correct nozzles on the boom, and we've got the right wind conditions according to the label, we don't see physical drift issues either, as long as you're following that label. So So that's the behavior of the herbicide and what happens to the crop and what happens to the weeds as we spray that.

Shay

Foulk: Great, I appreciate the overview on that. I know there's some people out there probably listening to this right now and they're thinking about the products and then the technology within the soybeans, and some farmers probably have the question about spraying generic mixes, and I was wondering if you can just speak to that a little bit. Why not to do that, and some repercussions of that occurring.

Shawna

Hubbard: Sure, I think as the education level increases about the Enlist system, naturally folks are going to have some questions. If you're not familiar with Enlist herbicides and you hear 2,4-D tolerance in the bean, what does that mean? As we think about the products that you can spray, both pre-emerge and post-emerge on an Enlist crop. That's only Enlist herbicides, 2,4-D choline with Colex-D technology. And the driver behind that is what we've just been discussing here, really the behavior of that chemistry, especially in the timing of post-emergence. So the fact that Enlist herbicides do have that near-zero volatility, and reduced potential for physical drift, it means that they behave really differently than a traditional 2,4-D ester, or an amine, or even a product like an LV6. Inlist herbicides behave really differently. They're made for use in crop and post-emergent.

The system was designed together, and so it's, for one thing, a really smart choice to use a better behaved product rather than take risks around generic products that don't have the reduced volatility and physical drift potential. But you also asked about an aspect that many people have questions on, which is, you know, from a legal standpoint, what's the situation there? So to answer that question, we actually go to the technology use agreement for Corteva, which governs the use of Enlist seed. And any traded seed falls under the guidelines and supervision, if you will, of a technology use agreement. There's— some companies call that different words, but it's the agreement that you sign when you purchase traded seed from any company.

The technology use agreement, when you purchase Enlist seed, within that, part of what you're agreeing to is not using an unlabeled herbicide, which would be any of the generic herbicides, pre or post emergent on Enlist crops. I guess I'd boil it down to, one, I think when people try Enlist herbicides, they're going to like it and they're going to see see the difference from traditional products, and understand why those Enlist products are the only ones labeled in crop. Number 2, if you have any questions or temptations, you want to realize that it's an off-label and illegal use to spray other products. I think many folks, as we all should be, would be very uncomfortable with the liability that could be associated with that. So we just want to stick with Enlist herbicides on Enlist crops.

Shay

Foulk: I appreciate the clarity on that because that's definitely something that comes up with any new technology out there. And with that being said, I was wondering if there's any other, you know, common misconceptions out there about the Enlist technology. I know you deal with this frequently, you know the technology and work with people on this. So, you know, what other common misconceptions out there? And I'll provide an example I was in a recent chemical meeting, and they were talking about some of the full rates with the herbicides, and the gentleman across from me said, "Oh, they're just trying to do that to sell you the product." Agronomically, I know that's not true, and that's not the reason behind that. Are there any other misconceptions like that that you think would be good to clear up with the listeners?

Shawna

Hubbard: It's a good question. I'll hit two of them. That come to mind, and one on the seed side and one on the chemistry side. So I think on the chemistry side, as you talk about 2,4-D, there is a misperception out there that all products that fall into the Group 4 category, or also known as the oxan category, all products are the same. What's interesting about that is that both 2,4-D and Dicamba fall into those categories. They're both, uh, auxin herbicides, and that can lead to a misperception that they behave the same in terms of weed control, uh, or that there is cross tolerance between the systems. And so that's one I just want to point out and make sure no one gets confused. If you spray an Enlist herbicide onto a dicamba-tolerant bean, you will not be happy with those soybeans.

And vice versa, if you spray a dicamba product onto an Enlist bean, you will be very unhappy there as well. There's no cross-tolerance between the systems because auxin herbicides are different, uh, the herbicide tolerances are different, and the way the chemistry behaves is really different, which plays itself out in some significant label differences between Enlist herbicides and the products that are for use in the Dicamba system. So that would be one misperception, not all auxins are the same. The other one that I do hear sometimes over the fall and winter, more on the seed side, is around yield, and so I think it's good to bring this one up as well. I think there's a misperception that because 2019 was the first year that E3 beans were out there, you know, fully commercially, no restrictions, that the genetics aren't very good because it's a new technology.

And what's interesting on that one, I go back to a time I was standing in a field of Enlist E3 production beans in 2014. That was when the USDA actually deregulated the Enlist E3 trait. That was back in 2014, and I was there in a field of production beans with my boss back that summer. And we talked about how we've been testing the system since 2007 is the first time that universities got Enlist herbicide, and we began demoing in 2009 in technology demonstration. So I just say that to make the point that although we've just begun commercially selling E3 beans, they've been in breeding programs now for quite some time. So Rather than broad brushing any, any trait around yield, I would encourage folks always to take a look at the specific lineup for the company that you're interested in doing business with.

And do realize that a lot of these yields are extremely competitive because they've been in breeding programs for a decade. And if there's any silver lining in a later than anticipated launch, probably about the only one, is that it does give you more time to refine varieties in the breeding program. That perception on yield is another one that I do think is a misperception that's out there.

Shay

Foulk: Great. I appreciate you touching on both the herbicide and the seed side of things there. I wanted to talk a little bit about how this technology sizes up with other technologies out there. You mentioned Dicamba. There's other products out there. Talk a little bit about how the Enlist is going to fit into the programs that farmers are currently running and what you see the future of this technology being.

Shawna

Hubbard: Sure. Well, often we get questions about how Enlist compares against other systems, because whatever you're using, maybe that's a LibertyLink bean, maybe that's a dicamba-tolerant bean, that's kind of your frame of reference. As you go forward. But one basic difference, just amongst those couple of comparisons, is the number of herbicide tolerances in the bean. Within List E3, you've got 3 tolerances in every bean. With LibertyLink, you have 1 tolerance to glufosinate. With Xtend beans, you've got tolerance to glyphosate and dicamba. So just the number of herbicide tolerances is a major difference between the systems as far as soybeans go. And then, other than that, I would just point back to basic differences in chemistry. We talked about 2,4-D choline and its near-zero volatility properties, and its weed control power, if you will, being a broadly Group 4 herbicide.

Um, so I'm gonna give you different behavior out there than Dicamba products or Liberty. Just a basic difference between Liberty is that Liberty is a contact herbicide and 2,4-D is a systemic herbicide. Um, so really just wanna make sure that we take a look at the chemistry itself and understand herbicide labels as you get into the details. Especially if you compare between Enlist herbicides and the in-crop dicambas. Some of the themes that you will see as you compare is increased flexibility with Enlist. By that, I mean things like there's no prohibition on tank mixing AMS with Enlist. That might be another common misperception, come to think of it. You can't tank mix AMS with the dicamba products,, but you can, and it's encouraged to use AMS when we've got glyphosate or Liberty in the tank with Enlist One.

Enlist is also not a restricted use pesticide, and the in-crop dicamba products are. So I would just advise everybody in terms of comparison, take some time as you think about the trait systems— system or systems— that you're going to go forward with for 2020. And do invest some time in really making sure you understand some ins and outs of the labels. Um, not just because of the restrictions, but also because of the opportunities that may be there as far as how long you can spray. Uh, for example, there's no state cutoff dates within list herbicides. Uh, and some various details like that. But it does take some time to study and really internalize all that.

Shay

Foulk: I agree, that's definitely an important piece of that. We have seen in 2019 and moving forward into 2020 that there's definitely been a wide adoption of the technology. And, you know, along with doing this podcast, there's tons of other information out there. I was wondering if you can outline some of the resources that are available to Enlist users and those who are considering the product where they can go and learn a little bit more.

Shawna

Hubbard: Yeah, definitely. To your point, Corteva is now projecting that there would be about 20% market share in the U.S., in the soybean market of E3 beans in 2020. So 20% share in 2020. That means we've got a lot of folks new to the system, and our field team and our Corteva Crop Protection team are out there right now focusing a lot on classroom trainings, webinars, online training. But the key place I would point people to learn more is Enlist.com. Many different things you can find there, just a couple of highlights. If you're looking for what I kind of fondly call the Enlist Bible, if you will, the 2020 Product Use Guide is there, and it serves as kind of an illustrated version of the label, really takes you through your options around tank mixing for weed control and how to do equipment setup before you spray, all kinds of practical things there in the product use guide.

You can also find an online training course in Lyst 360, as well as things like our application guide, which is just a quick checklist of what to think about before, during, and after you spray Enlist herbicide. So enlist.com would be the first stop for anybody seeking more information.

Shay

Foulk: That's great, and I really appreciate you sharing those resources as well. Is there any lasting impression that those who worked hard over the last decade or more to develop this technology, to bring it to market, what else is there that farmers should know about this technology? Is there anything else that I haven't asked you that you want to talk about with the Enlist technology that you think is important?

Shawna

Hubbard: It's a great question. I think I'm really privileged to know a number of people here in the office who spent the better part of a decade to get NLIST where it is today, and I hope that— I believe they would hope that folks have the impression that Dow and now Corteva really took the time to launch the Enlist system right. And by that I mean we did our homework ahead of time. We had a truly differentiated product and we put a lot of emphasis on management resources and stewardship this whole time. I mentioned earlier Enlist Ahead, that part of our system was developed in 2012, which is well ahead of the time any component of our system was commercially available.

We just wanted to build the foundation of Enlist on responsible use and really be cognizant of educating around the system in a way that keeps it sustainable, meaning that we have really solid weed resistance management practices that we talk about that are built into the system and, and the way that we advise folks to use that. I think all of us looking at the landscape of new technologies and trait herbicide systems All of us can really rally around the fact that the technologies we have, we need to take care with them, whatever technology it may be. It takes so long nowadays to get one through the R&D pipeline and then the entire system of regulatory approvals, that once we get one, we really want to take care to preserve that by going back to our basics of using multiple sites of action, in your herbicide plan.

As you said, busting up the misperception of using full rates, that's an important piece of weed resistance management. And really making sure that we just preserve these technologies going forward. Enlist is a great tool, and now we need everybody's help to keep it a great tool for many years to come here.

Shay

Foulk: So one of the last questions that I'll ask you is looking at the concern that there is with some in the industry as far as the lack of development for new modes of action and product development. Is there anything that, you know, we can look forward to as any exciting technologies coming down the pipeline? I know there's always things in the work, but what's the next generation? What comes after Enlist? Where do you think the industry is moving?

Shawna

Hubbard: Well, I'll be honest, Shay, my job and my focus is really around Enlist. I will say Corteva does have a pretty robust pipeline of products into the future, although I spend about 100% of my time just focused on Enlist. So I won't project too far down the line here, except to agree with you that as we do get new modes of action coming out, those can be slow to get here, so we should do all we can to to, again, promote those good stewardship practices and keep products around for as long as we can. It feels sometimes like the evolution of resistance here is getting the better of us in terms of evolving faster than our pipeline can. So we've got some great folks here in R&D, but again, we'll just try to focus on stewardship and also preserving the efficacy of what we do have. Here in the present.

Shay

Foulk: I really appreciate you talking about preserving and protecting the technologies that we do have, and I think farmers are definitely doing a better job of that as we move forward in the 21st century. Shawna, thank you very much for sharing, you know, this time, the information, the resources that you did, and creating some clarity around the NLIST program.

Shawna

Hubbard: Hey, really appreciate the opportunity. Thanks for having me on today.

Shay

Foulk: Absolutely. And thank you everyone for listening. We will catch you next time on the Ag View Pitch.

Narrator: Hey podcast, we've had a lot of new listeners and want to let you know where you can find us. Be sure to visit our website at agviewsolutions.com— that is A-G-V-U solutions dot com— to learn more about our work with transition planning, collaboration, peer group facilitation, equipment and machinery analysis, and profit management. You can also find us on Facebook, be sure to tune in to some other episodes on the Ag View Pitch. We do a series called Dad's Wisdom, post weekly market outlook discussions, and give insight to important questions on farmers' minds. You can always email us at agviewpitch@gmail.com with questions, podcast episode recommendations, or interest in what we do. Thank you everyone for listening, and we will catch you next time on the Ag View Pitch.